The Controversy Over Karmapa

Courtesy
B.RAMAN
(The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Associate of the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: se[email protected])

1. The Karmapa is the head of what is known as the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhism.It is claimed that the institution of Karmapa is more than 200 years older than the institution of Dalai Lama, who is the head of all Tibetan Buddhists, wherever they may be living.

17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje

2. There has been a controversy regarding the present 17th Karmapa ever since the death of the 16th Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje, in 1981.Claims were made on behalf of the following two persons that they were the real incarnation of the deceased 16th Karmapa — Ogyen Trinley Dorje (also spelt Urgyen Trinley Dorje) and Trinley Thaye Dorje

17th Karmapa Thinley Thaye

3. Both were enthroned by their respective followers as the 17th Karmapa, and both independently started performing ceremonial duties as the Karmapa. The majority of the monasteries and lamas of this sect recognized Urgyen Trinley Dorje as the Karmapa. However, a small number of monasteries and lamas of the sect including Shamar Rinpoche, who plays an important role in the selection process, did not allegedly recognize his claim. The Chinese Communist Party recognized his claim as the 17th Karmapa.

4. Urgyen Trinley Dorje enjoys considerable support—-though not total support—- among the followers of what is considered the oldest sect of Tibetan Buddhism. His support for the process for the selection of the successor to His Holiness the Dalai Lama could, in Chinese calculation, lend credibility to the child projected by the Chinese Communist Party as the incarnation of the present Dalai Lama after his death.

5. Normally, the Chinese Communist Party would have used the Panchen Lama for this purpose, but the institution of Panchen Lama has got into a controversy since the death of the 10th Panchen Lama in 1989. There are two 11th Panchen Lamas—one (Gedhun Choekyi Nyima) recognized by His Holiness and the majority of the Tibetan Buddhists as the real incarnation of the previous Panchen Lama, who was arrested by the Chinese authorities in 1995, and one (Gyaltsen Norbu) recognized and installed by the Chinese Communist Party as the real incarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama and hence the legitimate 11th Panchen Lama. Despite the best efforts of the Chinese Communist party to promote the person selected by it as the legitimate 11th Panchen Lama, his legitimacy has not been accepted by an overwhelming majority of Tibetan Buddhists, particularly by those living in exile in India and other countries of the world. They look upon him as an impostor and have been demanding the release of the person recognized by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. They refer sarcastically to Gyaltsen Norbu as Panchen Zuma ( false Panchen) and not Panchen Lama.

6. As this controversy over the Panchen Zuma was picking up momentum in the late 1990s, the 17th Karmapa, who himself is a controversial figure, landed by a taxi in Dharamsala, where His Holiness lives, on January 5,2000.He claimed that he had given the slip to the Chinese and clandestinely fled to India via Nepal because he was unhappy in Tibet and was not able to get his spiritual education completed in Tibet since most of the senior religious scholars of his sect were living in India.

7. Questions arose regarding the genuineness of his claim. Did he really escape clandestinely after giving a slip to the Chinese as claimed by him or was it a choreographed escape organized by the Chinese intelligence to create a split among the followers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, undermine his authority and project the Karmapa as the interim head of the Tibetan Buddhists after the death of His Holiness till the Dalai Lama’s successor is chosen by the Chinese Communist Party by stage-managing the identification of the child who is his incarnation.

8. Faced with this skepticism, the Karmapa explained how he escaped from Tibet at a media interaction on April 27,2002. He said as follows:

“On December 28, 1999, under the cover of a dark night, my senior attendant and I escaped from my monastery in Tibet and fled to India to seek refuge. The decision to leave my homeland, monastery, monks, parents, family, and the Tibetan people was entirely my own–no one told me to go and no one asked me to come. I left my country to impart the Buddha’s teachings in general and, in particular, to receive the excellent empowerments, transmissions, and instructions of my own Karma Kagyu tradition. These I could only receive from the main disciples of the previous Karmapa, Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsap Rinpoche, who were predicted to be my teachers and who reside in India.

“There have been various reports in the press about my escape, and so I will simply and briefly tell the truth about my journey. In great secrecy, my companions and I made our plans, using various stories to cover our true activities. For example, when the preparations were complete, I announced that I was entering a traditional, strict retreat and would not come out for some days. This story worked and prevented us from being pursued right away.

“On December 28, around 10:30 at night, my attendant and I slowly climbed down from my room and jumped onto the roof of the Protector Mahakala’s shrine room. From this building, we leapt to the ground where a jeep was waiting nearby with Lama Tsultrim and a driver. We left immediately. The story had been given out that Lama Tsultrim and his companions were going on a journey. As if preparing for this, they had driven in and out of the monastery several times during the day, and, therefore, everyone knew about this trip and we could easily leave. Usually, the monastery was strictly guarded, but no twenty-four hour guards were posted and we also left through a side road.

“After a while, Lama Tsewang and another driver joined us at a designated place. We decided to head directly towards western Tibet since few travelers used this road and the check posts were not so strictly guarded. Driving day and night, we stopped only to change drivers. By taking back roads through the hills and valleys, we evaded check posts and two army camps. Through the power of my prayers to the Buddha and through his compassion, we were not discovered and arrived in Mustang, Nepal, on the morning of December 30, 1999. Continuing the journey on foot and horseback, we crossed over several passes and finally reached Manang as I had planned. This part was extremely difficult and exhausting due to the poor and often dangerous condition of the paths and the freezing cold weather. During this time, I was tired and not very well physically, yet despite the difficulties, I was completely determined to reach my goal.

“Once in Manang, a close friend of Lama Tsewang Tashi helped us hire a helicopter. We landed in a place of Nepal known as Nagarkot and then went by car to Rauxal. From there, we traveled by train to Lucknow and continued with a rented car to Delhi, arriving at last in Dharamsala early on the morning of January 5, 2000. I went straight to meet His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the very embodiment of compassion, and he received me with his great love and affection. My joy knew no bounds.”

9. The skepticism regarding the genuineness of his claim has since subsided, but not completely. Some—including this writer—suspect that his “escape” to India was probably under a long-term Chinese intelligence operation to use him to influence events relating to Tibet after the death of His Holiness. It would not be correct to call him a Chinese spy meant to collect intelligence about His Holiness and his followers. The suspicion is that he could be a planted Chinese “agent of influence” to influence future events after the death of His Holiness.

10. The Government of India has allowed him to travel periodically within India to perform his religious tasks and obligations. He was also allowed to visit the US in 2008 to meet his followers there.

11. The skepticism regarding him has revived following the alleged seizure of currencies of different countries —including China—- amounting to a total value of US $ 1.5 million from his office and from persons associated with him in Dharamsala in recent days. An investigation has been started as to how he got this money and for what purpose. The Karmapa himself and his principal aides have been questioned. They are reported to have claimed that this amount represented the cash offerings of his followers visiting Dharamsala to seek his blessings and by his followers in other parts of India and abroad during his travels. This explanation sounds plausible.

12. Shri P.Chidambaram, the Home Minister, told the media on January 31 that since the matter was under investigation, he was not in a position to come to any conclusions till the investigation was completed. His Holiness has supported the investigation without saying anything further.

13. Sections of the media as usual have gone to town with allegations of the Karmapa being a Chinese spy. The Chinese Communist Party has strongly refuted these allegations. A report on this subject carried in the “People’s Forum” section of the party-controlled “People’s Daily” of China on January 31 is annexed.

14. This is a sensitive issue which could have an impact on State-to-State relations with China and could hurt the feelings and sensitivities of the followers of the Karmapa. We should carry out a vigorous investigation, keeping the Holiness in the picture, and await the results of the investigation as suggested by the Home Minister. We should avoid speculation that could prove counter-productive.

Dated: February 1, 2011

ANNEXURE

( From the “People’s Forum” section of the “People’s Daily” of January 31 )

Karmapa is Chinese spy? India makes a fuss again

India’s Himachal Pradesh police aided by Intelligence Bureau officials on Saturday questioned the 17th Karmapa, Ugyen Trinley Dorje, to hear his explanation on where he had got Rs 8.5 crores worth of currency in dollars and yuan that was seized from his monastery.

Dorje was questioned at his Sidhbari ashram near Dharamshala as searches continued in different monastries along Indo-China border for the third consecutive day.

“The office of the trust, backed by the Karmapa, and his ashram at Sidhbari have also been searched. Details are being shared with Enforcement Directorate officials who will probe the matter relating to seizure of foreign currency,” said an official in New Delhi. The official ruled out the possibility of Karmapa’s arrest. “So far nothing incriminating has been found against him. Dorje also appears to be fully cooperating with the probe,” he said.

Sources said the raids would be discussed at the conference of chief ministers on internal security in New Delhi on February 1 amid reports that IB officials suspect the Karmapa was a Chinese mole and the money was part of a design to control monastries along the border.

In Shimla, chief minister Prem Kumar Dhumal said the matter was serious although the Karmapa’s office had denied any link with China.

Himachal DGP D S Minhas told TOI the Karmapa was questioned by a team headed by Kangra SP Diljeet Singh Thakur and the monk was asked about the money’s source. “We are looking into what he told the team. He is not under house arrest.”

All religious orders in India receive huge donations. No one has heard so far about any other religious group being targeted. It’s irrational to conclude that Dorje is Chinese spy based on the recovery of a large amount of Chinese yuan in his monastery.

Dorje has been under the Indian security agencies’ scanner since his arrival in India after he left Tibet 12 years ago.

The Indian government has confined the Karmapa’s movements within 15 km of his home for sometime.Since July 2008, the Indian government has refused to let the Karmapa visit other monasteries in Himachal Pradesh and Jammu and Kashmir that are located close to the India-China border. How could Chinese government sponsor Dorje under India’s tight surveillance?

China on Monday denied that Tibetan spiritual leader Karmapa was its spy and claimed allegations against it showed India’s “mistrustful attitude” towards Beijing. “The speculation by India’s media, regarding the matter of the Karmapa as a Chinese agent or spy, shows that India is keeping its mistrustful attitude toward China,” said Xu Zhitao, an official of the United Front Work Department of the ruling Communist Party Central Committee.

“The 17th Karmapa Living Buddha (Monks in Tibet are called living Buddhas) is the first reincarnated Living Buddha confirmed and approved by the Central Government of the People’s Republic of China after the peaceful liberation of Tibet in 1951,” said Xu.

“The reincarnation of holy men is a unique form of succession in Tibetan Buddhism, which has long been recognized and respected,” Xu told state-run ‘Global Times’.

“Karmapa left China in 1999 for the purpose of religious behaviors, just as he claimed,” said Xu.

The Global Times, which published Xu’s comments in a report, seemed to frown upon on the Indian media. “This is not the first time that India’s media has linked ‘spies’ with China. Earlier this month, three Chinese citizens were arrested in India on suspicion of money laundering and spying on border security. But the Chinese foreign ministry said they were actually tourists who had mistakenly crossed the border from Nepal,” it said.

Courtesy: http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/

Join the Conversation

41 Comments

  1. says: ABCD

    India has managed to destroy all trust between itself and the Exiled Tibetans. Never again will it able to use the Tibetan card against China. Good job, …. Indian politicians and press. You have just helped China by defaming someone it hates and left the Tibetans in Exile w/o a future leader. Chinese ….. are laughing at your greedy and idiotic politicians (especially from this …….state of HP), and your unethical and blood-thirsty media. You have just lost your biggest card against China, and you don’t even know you did it to yourself.

    Admin note: we have edited the offensive words in this comment.

    1. says: Rajneesh

      Mr / Ms. ABCD, first we Indians ask Tibetan friends and refugees to refrain from Hypocrisy. First of all why INDIA should play cards against China for Tibet? What we owe to Tibet in reality? Secondly, be realistic , your freedom struggle in not basically a struggle, its a guess work going on with double standards. Your entire community is busy in minting money through selling “Made In China Goods” everywhere, just look into hundreds of shops in Mcleodganj, Manali run by Tibetans..What fun is going on in the name of freedom?

      First attain freedom from double standards and later come with a sense of other issues which are created by your religious heads who are fooling people in the name of religion.

  2. says: natasha

    The tibetians cant use India to fight political battles and India canot affordto have chinese spies here .
    India doesnt need or require tibetian goodwill to fight the Chinese .As it is the Tibetians themselves are refugees here and are even paid by the Indian government large sums of money for their own sustainance .
    Behave yourselves or Get out of our land .

  3. says: Gita

    So true. It is a shame what happened. So obvious that it is a smear campaign. Amazing that the media are willing to believe that some bundles of Yuan mixed with more than 20 other currencies could be a prove that His Holiness Karmapa is a Chinese spy.
    If somebody wants explanations in detail about the context regarding the money, acquisition of land and so on, look on the website of His Holiness’ office (http://www.kagyuoffice.org/). I wish the journalists would have done some research beforehand.
    I saw that they had to edit some offensive words in your comment. I personally know how difficult it is not to become too emotional about all this, it is so unfair what is happening. And I wish it would come out on the open, who came up with all those weird accusations against His Holiness. They should be in the media instead and apologize to him. Now there are articles about the Chinese to be the ones who want to harm His Holiness. Might be, but they are the minor problem in this case. They wouldn’t put so much effort in slandering him, why should they?
    If someone wants to find out who is behind that, they have to ask, who has a real advantage, if they damage the Karmapa’s reputation?
    Are there any courageous journalists out there, who are not financially dependent on somebody who pays them and tells them what they have to write? Anybody able to do responsible journalistic work? Please show us, that this is possible in India.
    For His Holiness Karmapa everything will turn out well in the end, but I doubt that the media will have the courage to report that and apologize then.

  4. says: Gita

    My reply was meant for ABCD of course. To Natasha I wouldn’t know what to say actually. One of the few really hateful comments that come up from Indians who still believe in the media these days.
    Relax Natasha. If there are Chinese spies in India you will have to look for them somewhere else.
    If the Karmapa would be one, do you really thin your government wouldn’t have been able to find any proof in 11 years that they surrounded him with security 24/7?
    Here is what the ADGP (law and order), Himachal Police, SR Mardi, said: “When asked, Mardi said till date there was no evidence regarding Chinese links of the Karmapa. The theory of the Karmapa being a Chinese spy had been cooked up by the media, he said.” The whole article amongst some other very interesting ones you find here: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110205/himachal.htm#2 Have a closer look at things before you judge innocent people. Don’t be fooled by the media.

    1. says: Rajneesh

      Gita,

      greetings ! I would like to question you few things. Karmapa may not be a spy, but he’s also not “innocent” as per as unaccounted money is concerned. Religion has been used as a den for money laundering activities. Whats the story behind heading a trust who has millions of unaccounted dollars or rupees with lots of legitimate issues.

      Media might have cooked up a spay story, but what Karmapa is cooking for the last decade? leading and preaching people for salvation, nirvana and moksha and putting an glued Asna of head trustee who controls all finances.

      Do you think all these million dollars or unaccounted crores of rupees are donated by people who do hard work, earning money trough ethical ways?? Its all black/tainted money people earn through gullible ways, cheating , exploiting/ dodging established system or other humans.. a sense of guilt or fear arises somewhere inside subconsciously and people look for partnership with god…and these are best ways..Like committing thousands sins in everyday life and taking a Holy Dip in Ganga..easy escapes from the burden of soul !

  5. says: STEPHEN JOSEPH

    india played tibet card since 1959,-
    1.india is a first nation who accepted china’s claim over tibet.tibetan came to india with a hope and believe that india being its oldest and closest friend can support their struggle.but chinese premier choi en lai befriended nehru before tibetans came into exile and nehru didn’t support tibet’s uprising by not uttering a single word of about tibet uprising in UNO.its the late shri lal bahadur sahastri ji who pressed nehru about the potential threat of china after tibets occupation.nehru in return got lots of political benefits from china in recognising kashmir issue.at present , chinese claim is just paradox of nehru’s deal.thereby india betrayed tibetans believe AND CHINA BETRAYED INDIA ACCORDING TO NEHRU DEAL.
    2.india headed by pandit nehru exchange tibetans BY providing tibetan asylum with the nuclear technology from usa .it was a deal between usa and india.india got a plenty of support from usa there after following fulfilling usa’s request.
    3.china is confident that tibetans in exile will disperse without head after reviewing granted india’s unlimited favourable agreement with china in resolving border issues.
    4. indo china war in 62 was a practical work of mao’s expansionist ideology,following capture of tibet.blaming tibetan for the war is not completely true.
    5.tibetan struggle is silent at present considering growing indo-china friendship and its importance to both the asian giants.if tibetans have remained FULL active at present then it may have caused a biggest challenge for india but just opposite is happening.Tibetan government is at present working considering india factor and to ensure not to damage indochina tie due to tibetan govt.
    5.india is contesting for the UN SECURITY COUNCIL SEAT AND among its many plus points-providing asylum to tibetans and dalai lama is a strongest point.tibetans are at present in the top list of refugees having maximum no. of literate person, health issue and financially sufficient.these issues are the key factor to become UN SECURITY COUNCIL SEAT.
    TIBETAN HAS BENEFITED A LOT FROM INDIAS SUPPORT AND INDIA HAS ALSO RECEIVED LOTS OF BENEFIT FROM TIBETANS IN EXILE.

    1. says: Rajneesh

      You have narrated a dead story whose ghosts have left earth long back. talk practical, for todays situations and perspectives, what are your views about Tibetan Freedom Struggle ?

      Do you think that Tibetans even know the meaning freedom? They are just used to hefty donations and leading a comfortable life by doing nice business & selling “Made In China” in most of their shops around Mcleadganj, Manali or wherever they are established in INDIA.

      Tibetans have benefited a lot from INDIAN land. They got new life, security as well as a way to earn in life..What INDIA gained from Tibetans other than enmity from CHINA ?

      Don’t try to pursue over this blog with a self styled assessment for UN security Council seat for INDIA..INDIA deserves it, because we have emerged as an economic power within Asian region whose stability is unquestionable. UNO is a manipulated agency controlled by rich nations, so we are getting closer to be a part of it. If you are so much displeased with Tibet issues, why don’t you pursue your own government (If you are from US or Europe) to issue green cards for all Tibetans in Exile and take them to your homeland. Then entertain them with all goodies and candies ! And make new plans for their freedom ! Freedom needs aggressive rebellion, if it was possible with candle march or writing beautiful stories to UNO headquarters …Tibet would have been liberated long ago !

      1. says: jsmurthy

        If the Tibetans continue to force this suspicious Karmapa and his cronies on the Indian People it will bee very detrimental for the Indian support for Tibet. With the demise of the Dalai Lama this little support will totally vanish.

        As for India it will put more restrictions on the Karmapa.

    2. says: Narad

      A lot of waters have flown down the Satluj since 1962… As a resident of Himachal, I am amazed to hear that Tibetians feel that India had betrayed them. I guess it has been the other way around. The warm and hospitable climate in South Asia plus an hospitable community made them betray their cause and they finally turned into traders, and as other commentators here have said, started selling the same made in China goods, the country they despise.

      India as a country has to look after it’s interests too and there is nothing wrong in that. Every country takes the same route. India as a nation has never been expansionist rather we had taken the route of self defense. We were weak in 1962 and Chinese reminded us brutally. Things are not bad now.

      The point here has been that this man is not a Karmappa and he has broken rules of the state. He is not able to give a convincing answer for all the money recovered from him. Tibetians have been involved in benami land deals in the state which is against the law. Now to say that since there is so much corruption in India, this thing should also be let away is a foolish way of looking at things when it involves people from other country.

      After so many years and many generations living in India, Tibetians are still living in their own ghettos and that is the crux of the problem. They take *shelter* in an imaginary cause to which they have no affiliation. Tomorrow if the GoI would grant them citizenship, they would take it with both hands. Just walk around their settlements anywhere in India and see for yourself, do they look like refugees from any angle??

      We Indians have had a lot of respect for His Holiness The Dalai Lama and one reason that such issues have been kept in back burner till now. This is the taste of things going to happen post His Holiness era.

      And finally, not a bad idea for the west to grant asylums to the Tibetians. They already had a taste of India, now they can savor the west. Freedom of Tibet is the last thing in minds of these new Sheikhs.

      1. says: hookknife

        Do not think that the west will remain naive about these lamas forever, the patina is definitely wearing off as thirty years of “do as I say, not as I do” the usual mantra of theocracy’s leadership.. We, like India have opened our hearts to them, given our money, and also observed their attitude toward any of their host countries, including US. They are here for our money,, and they pander to what are the politically correct issues of old white western tibetan buddhists. They surround themselves with rich white benefactors when here, who are equally as enthralled and give up all critical intelligence while under their sway. They never take responsibility for their actions because they see themselves as beyond cause and effect, they also never help anyone but themselves, calling building monasteries to exert their influence and remain on those golden thrones with all their little subjects and slaves. They take care of themselves at the top of pile. . We wonder why they are gven “church” status that hides their tax returns, and their devotees wouldn’t think to question them as they have convinced them that they are “living buddhas”as well. So everywhere there is no transparency. The west needs to end their attitudes that these are “holy men” coming from a Shangri lai, these are a group of priestly-brahmins who enthrall whole groups of people, east or west, and squash all critical thinking and questioning. If they are hooked up with China now, then you have the classic tyrannical state aided and abetted by a fundamentalist religion that will quell the masses. Has anyone done a count of the number of franchise monasteries they are building world wide? With Chinese money? This Tai Situ and his Karmapa has turned the Karme Kagyu around in a few decades to now be all about money and power and creating an empire of monasteries world wide to enthrall more and more devotees. Unfortunately for Tibetan people , since they and their lamas now believe the hype of their Shangri lai existence and their “holy men” who are living buddhas and beyond the law, they are able to prey on people’s gullibility everywhere and prevent the Tibetan people from growing up and becoming citizens in a democracy. It is time that these lamas are accountable to someone, other than themseves and their delusions about themselves.They need to enter the 21 c and relate to living in democracies instead of continuing to recreate their authoritarian 11 c bubbles , with just their hands out for other people’s money, while the rest of them remain enclosed in their feudal world believing that they are ‘above” the ordinary human realm looking down on everyone else. This is NOT what the Buddha taught and they are manifesting the opposite of what buddhist teachings are about. But they don’t know that, since they don’t know what the Buddha taught having never actually read the Pali Canon.

        1. says: Rajneesh

          This Karmapa is “Modern Day Buddha” with no sense of responsibility towards own actions..and seeking all kinds of excuses to hide own. “Lord Buddha’s ” teachings nowhere reflect in his actions.

          Lord Buddha said “App Deepo Bhawa” meaning be a light on to yourself ..before illuminating people on path, and This Karmapa is busy “App Billionaire Bhawa” mint money, defy rules, use blind followers to organise rallies for shielding own Black Karmas and Keep Silent ..leaving everyone guessing !

          If Karmapa was really an enlightened soul he would have spoken something to preserve self respect. “Budhha Left Royality, Palaces..Riches ..everything that didn’t fulfill him while being the owner.. and this “Karmapa” is trying hard to protect all frauds, unaccounted funds, dollars and euros….defending all evil…using web sites and social media like a tainted politician..!

          his actions no where reflect “Buddhist Philosophy” Sensible Tibetan people too realise this blunder and facts but feel awkward to say anything openly !

  6. says: jsmurthy

    Tibetan and Dalai Lama formula in India If the Indian government does not give permission lets do things illegally?.And justify it.
    How come Dalai Lama is unaware of all these illegal land deals? Now that he aware what is he doing. Nothing voluntarily . Expect the Indian Government to dig out things.
    Are we supposed to spent the the rest of our future keeping a eye on Tibetans and digging out things.

  7. says: hookknife

    Well, looks like Hamachal govt has given in to pressure, pressure from US still under the Dalai Lama mystique and still believe , foolishly, that these Lamas are some kind of balance against China, when they are working “hand(out) and glove” with them. The US ought to be investigating what these lamas are up to in the US , instead of US undersecretary making unannounced visit to India and getting their version of things from Tibetans who are still living in the 11 century, and say things like” he couldn’t have done because he couldn’t have done it, he is a holy man” , and then a Gold Medal of Congress is announced for Dalai lama, and all the fanatical cult members can breathe a sigh of relief again. “Win” for totalitarian corporate global capitalism with repressive Lamaism, pretending to be “modern” now, while quelling the masses, “Loss” for democracy in India and going after corruption, , and big loss for the mentally Tibetan people, who even after being free physically, are still in “fetters” and enslaved to medieval lamaism. Sad day for the Buddha’s teachings. But at least more people in the west will grow up, the “book burning” is something deep in our psyches that is a “red flag” that this group is not all it is pretending to be and are millionaire political power brokers whose arrogance, and hubris will not work in free democracies forever, and they are not the humble monk image they present to the world. People here will start reading Tibet’s actual history , instead of the Shangri lai versions hollywood and idiot celebrities have pushed on us, and will start demanding that the US government stop playing politics and look at what these Chinese supported lamas and their franchise monasteries are really up to in their own backyard.

  8. says: Rajneesh

    Nice comment by “hookknife” One fine day INDIA may face another demand like “Mini Tibet” here. And politicians will agree to it..if the deal will be backed by US..or get a brokerage out of it….and BJYM workers will make a stunt to host National Flag in so called autonomous “Mini Tibet” !

    Himachal government has encouraged anti national activities…dumb public also deserves it !

  9. says: Gaddi TaTsering

    Karmapa, Chinese spy!, now that is music to the ears of Communist China.

    By Jamyang Dorjee
    Sikkim Express

    The recent police raids conducted at Karmapa’s residence in Dharamsala with media that led to recovery of international currencies including Chinese currency and subsequent accusation by the media, particularly some television channels of him being a Chinese spy and money laundering is most unfortunate and seemed pre planned. As the spokesperson for Karmapa Mr Karma Toden, former MP Rajya Sabha rightly said in his press conference” the very flight of Karmapa to India ten year back gained international media coverage and exposed China’s misrule in Tibet ,which could not have been work of Chinese spy”. Generally, malicious attacks on defaming the institution of spiritual masters like Shankracharya and Swami Ram Dev and others in India have been the modern day trend of so called secular media

    His Holiness Karmapa, the Head of the Kagyupa sect of Tibetan Buddhism, has millions of followers around the world including those from the Chinese who come to visit him in hundreds every day. Ever since he came to India, every visitor who comes to meet him undergoes a strict security drill. Every one of the visitor is registered and frisked by the security officials and the itinerary of his tours outside Dharamsala is undertaken with prior approval of the external affairs ministry, Government of India. He has no freedom to move freely as he wishes and meet guests without the knowledge of the security agencies.

    In accordance with Buddhist tradition, devotees offer money in their own currency – be it an Indian, an American, European or a Chinese at any given time of the day. Hence it would be ridiculous to charge any religious head of being a spy simply because his disciples offer him Chinese currency. The offerings were made in the presence of security agencies and will continue to happen unless the Government of India opens a foreign exchange counter at his office and makes it mandatory for every disciple to exchange and offer in Indian currency. Yes, it is a fact that the staff should have acted according to the law of the land and promptly deposited the money to the trust account without accumulating. This was a total administrative failure and trying to link this to unfound issues and defame an institution is misleading and disinformation.

    Karmapa left behind his monastery, one of the richest in Tibet, his dear parents and close disciples to come to the land of his Guru and not to be a subject of humiliation like this. Even after 11 years in India, he is not allowed to visit Rumtek, his main seat in Sikkim or buy land and built a new monastery to be called his own in Himachal Pradesh and is still staying in a monastery that does not belong to his sect. Yet even at this young age, he inherited a responsibly to logistically support thousands of his monks and nuns in various monasteries in India and Nepal including his main monastery in Sikkim. These monasteries neither have trees where money is grown nor received any kind of Central or state Government funds to meet daily expenses of for food, clothing and studies. They are dependent on their Lamas. Personally Karmapa does not have even a pocket on his saffron robe.

    Ever since Tibetans came to exile 60 years back, with all the money and power, China could not win the heart of a single Tibetan who will spy for them with a design to hurt India’s security and that includes His Holiness Karmapa. On the almost all the of six million Tibetans in Tibet turn their heart towards India where their ultimate refuge (soul ) His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Karmapa and others live. Off course the Chinese have every reason to suspect Tibetans but why India? Many Tibetans who studied in India and returned back to Tibet are today languishing in Chinese jails for their crime of studying in India. In India, many Tibetans have laid their life from the hills of Kargil to the plains of Bangladesh for the security of their adopted motherland, outside of the media glare for security reasons. Tibetan youths continue to serve in the Indian army with dedication.

    When Over 50,000 people gathered on September 26, 2010 in the peaceful Himalayan state of Sikkim and organize rally to urge the Government of India to lift travel restrictions so the Karmapa can come home, why were the media not excited then as today to highlight the sentiments of his disciples?. The Karmapa lineage’s relations with the Sikkimese people date back to the time of the 12th Karmapa, Changchub Dorji (1703–1732). It is time that media understand the depth of the rich Buddhist Sangha tradition in general and particularly the true sentiments of the disciples instead of hurting them by throwing grossly speculative and baseless accusations. Karmapa is neither a spy of any country nor a magician to perform tricks as challenged by one of the claimant of the Rumtek throne from time to time. He is an institution that embodies 900 years old legacy of Kagyu tradition of compassion and peace. Such accusations will be music to the ears of Communist Chinese authority and I wish our media be little mindful of playing such music.

    The writer is an editorial consultant to Radio Free Asia, Washington DC and former Joint Secretary to the Government of Sikkim.

    1. says: Rajneesh

      Very smart excuses – n accordance with Buddhist tradition, devotees offer money in their own currency – be it an Indian, an American, European or a Chinese at any given time of the day.

      Where its a tradition in Buddhist tradition to offer unaccounted money
      ?? Come on what are you trying to prove? Is it also a part of Buddhist tradition to dodge established rules and buy benami properties ?

      You said “Every one of the visitor is registered and frisked by the security officials and the itinerary of his tours outside Dharamsala is undertaken with prior approval of the external affairs ministry, Government of India. He has no freedom to move freely as he wishes and meet guests without the knowledge of the security agencies.”

      Why Karmapas has to compromise so much with his personal freedom? A person showing path of freedom & nirvana to followers is living like a prisoner? Why ?

      You said “Personally Karmapa does not have even a pocket on his saffron robe”

      Because pockets can’t even keep millions of dollars and yuans in cash. By these childish statements you are trying hard to prove institutional innocence. That doesn’t amuse anyone.

      What is the logic behind your statement —> Tibetan youths continue to serve in the Indian army with dedication.

      Prove it that INDIAN army has employed Tibetans in Army. When Tibetans don’t have a resident status how come they are serving in INDIAN Army?

      Other than Karmapas mess you for forgot to mention that Tibetans are also “Serving Chinese Companies Dedicatedly” by selling “Made In China” stuff everywhere in Manali, Mcledoganj or everywhere they are ! What a way to get freedom from CHINA !

  10. says: Tashi Lama

    Mr. Rajneesh,

    I dont know where you have been hiding all these years. It looks to me like you just heard about Buddhism and Tibetans and started commenting on them. The tradition of ‘offering’ in Buddhism is universal and Buddhist don’t care how much you give in cash or in asset, it’s an offering to accumulate merits for your next life or whatever. It’s being practiced all over the world by the Buddhist , from America to China and from Russia to Sri Lanka. The concept of offering and giving anything ‘unaccounted’ to your Guru is originally started from Hinduism and then gradually spread to another religions and countries.
    Nobody broke the law in land deals and its just the media that hyped the whole concocted story about those deals. The Gyuto monastery land, where Karmapa was temporarily staying, was purchased with the knowledge of district authorities and they have papers to prove of the land purchaser abd lease with the state government. Karmapa was just singled out with Tibetan diaspora and dragged in the controversy but leaving alone other non-Himachali from Punjab and Bombay who built big resorts and hotels around HP on benami land deals unknown to state government. Isn’t law of the land equal to everyone in HP? By the way, Tibetans who were born in HP between 1950 to 1987 are the citizens of India and they should be treated as Indian national and not ‘refugee’ as stated by Delhi High Court under the Indian citizenship Act of the Constitution. FYI, there are more than 40 thousand of them in HP and they are all born in HP and by law should be treated as Himachali and can buy more land than the ‘punjabis’.

    Yes, Tibetan do serve in the Indian army and again FYI, they are in intelligence business too. I dont want to go on long history of Tibetans fighting for India with Pakistan, China and so on but please just check this out and educate yourself and friends too. We all have family member in the Indian army and your acknowledgement is not necessary for me:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force

    1. says: Rajneesh

      Mr Lama , i too have been hiding as you were till now. Your comment and views surprise me “Buddhist don’t care how much you give in cash or in asset, it’s an offering to accumulate merits for your next life or whatever”

      I didn’t know there is “Karmic Freedom” with money earned by doing all hooks and crooks and invested in “Spiritual Corporations” Where did lord Buddha set up such an agenda to compensate karmas?

      Regarding your comment “Yes, Tibetan do serve in the Indian army and again FYI, they are in intelligence business too. I dont want to go on long history of Tibetans fighting for India with Pakistan, China and so on but please just check this out and educate yourself and friends too”

      Ok, i must say i was at lack of information, regarding troops , But same is expected from you to educate your people… stop selling “Made In China” stuff. That makes Tibetan Freedom move a cheap joke ! You interestingly advocated about facts where i was at misinformation but what about “Made in China” and sold by Tibetans ? Any answer to this mockery ???

      1. says: Tashi Lama

        Mr. Rajneesh,

        I am happy that I, at least started educating some of my Indian friends on the better part of the Tibetan society in India. I am not saying all the Tibetans are good and perfect but also like humans everyone has a fault of their own and whether it is social, religious or political issues. Tibetans are mostly Buddhist in India apart from few converted Hindus, Christians and some Muslims in J&K, and for them religion plays an important part in their cultural life. Tibetan Buddhists believe in most of the religious practices that Hindus perform and most of our Gods, goddesses and devils are same as per the scriptures. However, with time, the Lord Buddhas teaching has been interpreted and evolved into different initiation and practices that may slightly or wholely differ from each region just like Hindus, Muslims or Christians all over the world.
        Being a Tibetan, I too believe in Karma, Samsara and all that and I am very religious when it comes to offering and giving to Gurus and monks practically speaking and I don’t keep account of what I give to whom in the monastery because I know I already earned ‘merit’, ashirvaad and good luck with my small givings. Now multiply that by millions of visiting Buddhist from around the world to the Tibetan monasteries and you will somewhat understand the ‘karmic’ contributions and connections based on faith, belief, prayers and human love. The Chinese Buddhist are the biggest givers in this world and they hail from Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, US, Europe and mainland China whereas other contributiing Buddhist come from Japan, Korea, Nepal and Bhutan to the Tibetan monasteries in India and the only reason they give and sponsor monastery or monks in India is for Buddhism and nothing else. Well, I know how Baba Ramdev, Rajneesh and many other Babas made their millions and got rich so quick but all their messages are simple and religious!

        Your other matter was with Tibetans selling ‘made in china’ stuffs and you call it a mockery. Yes, I call that a mockery too but that mockery is mockery of Indian capitalism and Chinese merchandise being brought to India through ports of Calcutta by sea, by air through Indian cargo planes and by land through porous borders with permission of Indian government and not Exile-Tibetan ‘refugee’ government. Tibetans love to sell stuffs that are ‘made in Ludiana’ by the gracious Lalas who also help Tibetans as a money lenders when they are in need of support. The Ludiana goods were cheap and transportable state by state without any problem for all those years. In return, Tibetans buy from those Ludiana lalas everyyear for their shops or seasonal Businesses and maintain the seller -buyer loyalty for the last 50 years. You can visit ludiana anytime and ask those Lalas about the Tibetans and ‘why made in China is killing their business’ not by Tibetans but by new liberalisation of Indian economy and i am pretty sure they would blame China and Indian government instead of loyal Tibetans. This economic culture of Indian-Tibetan Bhai-bhandi in business came to an end after the import of cheap Chinese goods and merchandise by big Indian corporates for making bigger and quick money while destroying business of home industry goods of Ludiana and many other Indian exporters. Now, are you still gonna make mockery of ‘made in China’? Think twice again!

        Regarding the Tibetan-Indian troops, they are still out there in harms way everyday defending Bharatmata and your freedom!

        1. says: Rajneesh

          Mr. Lama thats very funny when it comes to take responsibility of issues you bring very smart excuses ! India is trading with many countries, so with China too, but its not forcing “Tibetans Seeking Freedom To Sell Made in China” Perhaps education and guidance is needed for Tibetans MORE at first hand. You need to make a random recheck again in shops run by Tibetans, electronic gadgets, shoes I pods, Toys, Jackets..many items they sell are “Made In China” l. So the morale of discussion is “Mockery” which is contradictory to what Tibetans living in INDIA aspire for !

          As you drag in BABA Ramdev stroy, he has not come from Pakistan or China under mysterious circumstances, nor he is collecting donations from Pakistan or China..in the name of “Karmic Clearance” practices. How Tibetans can condemn a Nation “China” so loud and still eager to sell “Made In China” or fetch donations in their monasteries from its people who believe, exist and earn from a system that is totally controlled by China and oppressing Tibet?? , simply the interest of sects too remains in “Money” not in religion not even in freedom of Tibet ! From whosoever way it comes from ..may be from enemies..its a matter of issuing “Karmic Clearance Certificate”..like we see in Pollution Control certifications centres who issue it to vehicles without even checking how much they are emitting ..lols ..!

          Regarding any troops in INDIAN army, they are all doing their willful duties under compensation. No one is doing obligation or missionary work without getting salary or benefits. Its part of their willful jobs to defend nation and its civilians and most of them are doing it gracefully ! My brother is also in INDIAN army, serving Major and i observe many things and discuss issues regularly ! So have a better insight about Bharat Mata & its Issues !

          1. says: Tashi Lama

            Mr. Rajneesh,
            You are not being reasonable when talking about the politics and economic livelihood of the Tibetan people. Tibetans do not import ‘made in China’ goods straight from China to Himachal but it comes through the shipping ports of the Indian government and it is all legal to trade in ‘made in China or made in Taiwan’ goods in India. You should visit Palika bazaar Or some other places in Delhi, the capital of India, where 99 % of electronic goods & clothes are made in China sold by the local Indians to the Indians. Same in the story, many other shopping places in parts of India are overrun by businesses of Chinese made goods which are cheaper than the desi-made stuffs and Indian people love to buy inexpensive stuffs that are ‘foreign’ made.. You want to blame the spread of Chinese made goods in India, Tibetans are not the ones to blame for it but it is ‘ironical’ that business and issues of human rights don’t play together in this age of international politics and India keeps bowing to the invading imports of Chinese made goods here in India and passing no-objection letters to all the human rights violations in Tibet and the world at the UN meetings for Chinas economic freindship. That’s a real mockery! Tibetans have no choice in business but to compete with others by selling not only desi-made stuffs but their ‘customer favorite made in China’ cheap stuffs as their Indian suppliers are now also dealing in ‘made in China’ merchandise to fulfill the demands of Indian customers in all of India. I personally don’t like made-in-China stuffs because you never know under what conditions those goods were made in China and it could be made by forced labour prison camps or some child labored factory somewhere in remote place of Beijing. I can’t afford made in USA or Europe stuffs because they are way too expensive and out of my budget but I cant even buy desi-made stuffs, if I get lucky to see them around because they break down too easy and bit too expensive. Personally, I think there is no way to check where the goods are really made and the label doesn’t say everything. I saw sellers sticking ‘made in China’ labels on some desi-stuffs in Delhi and I am sure it will end up as made in China in Himachal or elsewhere. Would you blame Tibetans for that?

            I don’t hate the Chinese people or whatever Is Chinese but as His Holiness has said ‘it’s the policy of the Communist government’ that voilates the basic rights of the Tibetan people in Tibet and in China. I support the Chinese students democratic revolution and the ongoing ‘Jasmine revolution’ of Chinese people in China.

            As for Baba Ramdev, I think he is a great yoga master with a big talent in marketing his products and image. Baba Ramdev is an International star running for seat as a politician in India. Baba Ramdev products are everywhere today in all stores of US, Europe and Asia. He owns a property of millions of dollars and tours all over the world. I like baba Ramdev for what he is doing and what he is preaching but isn’t he going too commercial religion wise? He said he is Rama & Krishna bakht but in Ramayana or Gita, I don’t see anybody selling products worldwide and building palace like ashrams with super-high-tech ‘made in China’ gadgets all around the ashrams. I would say that would definitely bring ‘bad karma’!

            My Tibetan brothers did not join Indian army for some kind of compensation but out of love, graciousness, loyalty, courage and dedication to the country who help their Dharam Guru HH the Dalai Lama and it’s people for nearly 50 years ago. They are known as ‘LAMA FAUJI’ as such in the Indian Army and received many ‘Vir Chakras’ anonymously and posthumously.
            Please, Speak with respect when you talk about our Fauji Bhai because they are grateful not only to India but also to the Tibetans all over the world.

  11. says: Rajneesh

    Mr. Lama, you are trying very hard to advocate “Made in China” and “Sold By Tibetans” you seem trapped with this stigma and have no choice other than making justifications !

    Livelihood for Tibetans by only selling “Made In China” ?? Selling “Made In China” is a moral crime ..at least for “Tibetans” There is no dearth or drought of other goods that can be sold by “Tibetans” This excuse is impotent, this means if survival need arises, anyone may even Spy for China ..just for livelihood ??? what a justification of livelihood, if money is motto, then it may come from anything. What fun in lecturing all this Mr. Lama about Tibetan Struggle, when your own people are contributing to the economy of “China” then raising slogans and organizing anti China protests bears no significance !

    Wearing “Made in China, Promoting Made in China & Selling Made in China” and shouting anti China Protests..seems like a comedy script !

    Your justification is wrong that meeting demands of INDIAN customers they are forced to sell “Made In China” By the way no one is forcing them to sell “Made in China” Tibetans don’t take written orders from INDIAN or any other customers that they will buy only “Made In China” thats height of your ignorance portrayed.

    Baba Ramdev and his organisation is selling herbal products, or ayurveda medicines but he’s not sourcing it from China or Pakistan for survival ! Your Lecturing about bad karmas is good but what about Tibetans who are karmic debt ridden by CHINA that they don’t see any other things other than “Made in China” stuff.

    Mr. Lama, you said —> He said he is Rama & Krishna bakht but in Ramayana or Gita, I don’t see anybody selling products worldwide and building palace like ashrams with super-high-tech ‘made in China’ gadgets all around the ashrams. I would say that would definitely bring ‘bad karma’!

    You too were not present by that Yuga of Rama or Krishna, and delivering issues with no rhyme and reason makes no sense. You say so many negative things but indirectly, about this and that..about INDIA about Ramdev..etc. just google around your search and type “Fraud Tibetans” you will get top of the page with whose name..? how would you take that?

    Same way, don’t mess with issues irrelevant to post. If Ramdev built up ashrams so is the case with your spiritual leaders, they are also living in Royalty, travelling in Mercedes Benz and consuming ultra modern lifestyle, none of them is walking in jungles and sleeping over earthen bed for Salvation!

    I am speaking genuinely on aspects raised here, don’t feel the need to butter up anything to convey respect as it comes from within , not with words polished and creamed with flattery.

    You said —-> My Tibetan brothers did not join Indian army for some kind of compensation

    Then what they do with their salaries? Send it all back to Monasteries or Government of INDIA treasury ? be realistic !

    1. says: Tashi Lama

      Mr. Rajneesh,

      Your comments are very judgmental and accusative of Tibetans in India. You are dismissing any reasonable and possible explanations as ‘excuses’ and ‘stigmatizing’ a distinct group of people as ‘hypocrite’ and generalizing all Tibetans with your ‘stereotypical’ look and thinking of Tibetan people as ‘foreigners’ and thus ‘outsiders’. You arguments are appearing more like that of an obsessive sensationalized ‘anti-Tibetan’ media who are always in ‘denial’ and propagating the political rhetoric of few who are on a ‘demonizing’ spree of anything Tibetan recently.

      You seem to be angry at handful of Tibetans who are selling ‘made in China’ goods imported by Indian companies somewhere from China. Can you exactly tell me where did you saw those Tibetan shop? In Dharamsala, most of the Tibetan shops sells or deals in ‘antique’ buddhist stuffs and cultural related merchandises made in India or Nepal and very few of the street vendors carry Chinese-made goods. Btw, how many Tibetan shops have you seen selling ‘made in China’ stuffs and tell me ‘where’ exactly? No ‘parantu-shantu’ or ‘lekin-waykin’ because the lie that you are perpetuating here is getting little out of hand and unbelievably annoying.

      Tibetans did launched a campaign of boycotting ‘made in China’ stuffs and urged many others to do the same and they are still keeping on it but eventually the business interest of few with Indian suppliers brought Chinese made goods to the door of bargain-hungry Indian customers.
      Did the Indians boycott ‘made in China’ goods after the war of 1962 between India and China? I don’t remember anything but Tibetans did and they carried on the boycott campaign until Indian government relaxed the sino-Indian economic ties and welcomed the flood of Chinese-made goods into Indian market. Now again, please do not blame few Tibetans for this mess and we all know the saying ‘no buyer then no seller’!

      Gandhi ji may not be a happy man today if he sees the policy of Indian politicians and few corrupt leaders who are now destroying his ‘swadeshi’ movement from foreign brands imported by Indians and not Tibetans to India. India is contributing more globally to China’s economy than few Tibetans and still China was and is India’s no 1 enemy besides Pakistan. What a mockery of Indian values and Gandhi’s swadeshi dreams? Not again, do not blame the Tibetans for this mess!

      I know, nobodys forcing Tibetans from selling Chinese goods in India and they can stop selling whatever not made in India but likewise nobodys even giving them a choice in doing business when all your customer want is cheap ‘made in China’ and not ‘Swadeshi’ stuffs. Gandhi was right if he is alive today and he would definitely help Tibetans in their boycott of Chinese-made stuffs from coming to Indian markets.

      As for me, I am mad at Chinese communist government and it’s ruthless policies of Tibet and not Chinese people or their cheap goods. Free Tibet doesn’t mean stop-consumerism or ‘stop living’ to me because I have to live my life with a dream of Free Tibet and I love my India because I was born here.

      The politics of the world is changing and as such Tibetan freedom movement is also changing and adopting new methods just like India’s stand with China and Pakistan is also changing constantly on the international stage. Now, please don’t say you are the moral judge and can dictate what you like morally and immorally on the Tibetans and not the Indians. That’s gonna be very biased, irrational and plainly racist if I may say so ‘immorally’.

      I respect Baba Ramdev and I even practice his yoga in morning and evening. He’s like guru to me and to many other Buddhists world over as a great yogi. I don’t care how many wealth he got and how he manages them but as long as he don’t get into politics of ‘demonising’ and bad-mouthing other humans. Today’s Babas & Amma’s are glamorously rich with massive enterprises and their text book spirituality is changing into contemporary ‘GuruGiri’ in a whole new way. India is a land of big Gurus or Gurumaa’s and it is little unsettling for Tibetans to see them seldom get into controversys (Karmapa included!) because after all Indians and Tibetans have ‘guru-chela’ relationship historically.

      As you suggested, I googled about ‘Frauds in India by gurus’ but not only Tibetans and I was shocked to learn about the true story and that’s very discouraging. I pray Lord Buddha direct them the correct way from all those controversies and bestow ‘mukhti’ from all evils of this world. Just say “OM”!

      Yes, my Tibetan Fauji brothers gives their salary money to monasterys even if its meagre sum because we are Buddhist and we believe in ‘giving’ and offerings to thousands of monks in the monastery itrespective of ‘accounts’ and also to the Indian-beggars that gather near Tibetan monasterys for help everyday for food, cloths and shelter and the monks take care of them irrespective of their race, color, religion, state and nationality. I salute my Lama-Fauji brothers for their kind-heartedness and bravery for protecting not only my freedom but freedom of all those Tibetan-haters and bashers in India.
      Jai Hind! Jai Tibet!

  12. says: Rajneesh

    Come on Mr. Lama first interrogate your inner concise. You too are judgmental everywhere & Perhaps the case is with you, when i talk of real issues “you shed the entire responsibility on INDIANS, media or INDIAN gurus. Reality is biting you hard and you seem to be trapped with your own explanations.

    You said —–> “You arguments are appearing more like that of an obsessive sensationalized ‘anti-Tibetan’ media who are always in ‘denial’

    Its your perspective, and biased thinking. Media has not yet raised this issue — “Selling In Made In China By Tibetans”. And we were primarily discussing that.

    You said “You seem to be angry at handful of Tibetans who are selling ‘made in China’ goods imported by Indian companies somewhere from China”

    I am not angry though, its look like a comedy when see Tibetans protesting against “China” you seem to be advocating this blunder, selling “Made In China” and agitating against “China” First correct your people and give them extra classes regarding shunning this comedy.

    You said —> Indian suppliers brought Chinese made goods to the door of bargain-hungry Indian customers.

    Correct your words here, what do you mean by Bargain Hungry Indian Customers?? What about Tibetans ? every customer bargains, you pay double the price you buy something for yourself, if Tibetans are not willing to sell “bargain oriented” stuff then sell which is genuine, why only “Made in China” Tibetans Bread and Butter comes from selling “Made In China” and you come advocating them by blaming INDIANS.

    You said –> Can you exactly tell me where did you saw those Tibetan shop? In Dharamsala, most of the Tibetan shops sells or deals in ‘antique’ buddhist stuffs and cultural related merchandises made in India or Nepal and very few of the street vendors carry Chinese-made goods.

    This issue is an open book, get a good survey done at McLeod ganj or, go to Manali, you’ll be able buy truck loads from Tibetan Shops.

    You said “Now again, please do not blame few Tibetans for this mess and we all know the saying ‘no buyer then no seller’!

    O really, i had no idea about this theory, some lunatic crazy buyers may also be demanding opium or marijuana, i wish you would not jump in advocating meeting such non sense demands. If Tibetans would not sell “Made In China” no one can force them to do so.

    You said —-> Did the Indians boycott ‘made in China’ goods after the war of 1962 between India and China?

    Just because of Tibetans INDIA had to face that, Tibetans owe it , but we INDIAN citizens never blamed or criticized them,. You should be thankful for our generosity.

    You said —–> Gandhi ji may not be a happy man today if he sees the policy of Indian politicians and few corrupt leaders who are now destroying his ‘swadeshi’ movement from foreign brands imported by Indians and not Tibetans to India.

    Same may be possible with lord Buddha too, he must be wondering if that was the path of salvation he preached for followers who are drenched in illusion from head to toes as money making machines with unaccounted Dollars or Yuans and advocating it like capitalists.

    You said —–> I know, nobodys forcing Tibetans from selling Chinese goods in India and they can stop selling whatever not made in India but likewise nobodys even giving them a choice in doing business when all your customer want is cheap ‘made in China’ and not ‘Swadeshi’ stuffs.

    You behave as if Tibetan shopkeepers are in infancy, and are bottle fed, what do you mean by that nobody is giving them choice?? No one is even forcing them to sell “Made In China”

    You said —-> Now, please don’t say you are the moral judge and can dictate what you like morally and immorally on the Tibetans and not the Indians.

    Thats funny, if i would have been so, i would have really dictated Tibetans from “Stop Selling Made in China”

    You said “As you suggested, I googled about ‘Frauds in India by gurus’ but not only Tibetans and I was shocked to learn about the true story and that’s very discouraging.

    I haven’t advocated like you for blunders by gurus or Tibetans “Selling Made In China” Show me a single instance where i advocated blunders. And perhaps, you were busy advocating selling “Made In China” story by Tibetans blaming it entirely on INDIANS.

    You said —–> to the Indian-beggars that gather near Tibetan monasterys for help everyday for food, cloths and shelter and the monks take care of them irrespective of their race, color, religion, state and nationality.

    You seem very proud quoting “INDIAN BEGGARS” if you Tibetans are so generous about humans irrespective of caste, color or creed why don’t you let those beggars be a part of monasteries? Bring them to educate in your own monasteries, also give them food and shelter so that it looks fair. Everyone feels ego nourished by giving to beggars, so is your statement.

    Correct your words “INDIAN BEGGARS” ….beggars don’t come with a nationally tags as they are struggling for existence and survival. Your say beautiful things but subconsciously hidden sense of hatred too reflect with your descriptions, come out of pseudo spiritualistic camouflage and accept that selling “Made In China” by Tibetans is a blunder which you take a bow to correct !

    I don’t know why you have lost sense of discussion and make funny statements.

    just look at your words —– I salute my Lama-Fauji brothers for their kind-heartedness and bravery for protecting not only my freedom but freedom of all those Tibetan-haters and bashers in India.

    What fun in all this comedy ? You should also thank Government of INDIA giving them an opportunity to have a job and a decent living. If people were really hating “Tibetans” so much as thought by you , it would have been impossible for them to live here peacefully.

  13. says: Tashi Lama

    Mr. Rajneesh, 

    Why are you repeating the same lies again and again in your comments???Don’t you understand up till now that the ‘jokes’ are on you???? … Don’t be hating!….. You are still stuck on the same ‘made-up’ allegation of Tibetans ‘selling made in China’ stuffs  without ‘giving’ any educated understanding or chance to others point of view on their defense. You are on a one way traffic of opinion and assumption and your callousness in describing and portraying Tibetans in general is ignorant, outrageous and worthy of immense laughter. Further, your lack of knowledge about your own country is deplorable and is a huge topic of hilarity. You didn’t even have knowledge that a force of Tibetan-Indian army existed for the past 50 years in India and Tibetans who were born here in India have same rights and freedom as other  citizens of India according to the Indian constitution. 
    Now, the question of alienating Tibetans as ‘them’ versus ‘us’ as Indian by you is totally and ethically wrong and biased in nature and therefore misleading to many readers. It looks to me that you can’t even handle the diversity of your state because of your ignorance, intolerance and lack of information,  where millions of Buddhist and Tibetan-ancestry Himachali’s like Kinauri, Ladakhi, sikkimese and Arunachali who have similar culture and faith with Tibetans live in peace and harmony. You didn’t even bother to check that in your comments against the Tibetan buddhists and thus you are also hurting the sentiments, beliefs and faith of those Indians by bashing Tibetan culture simultaneously.  

    FYI for you, Tibetans do have same rights as you, Sonia Gandhi and PK Dhumal in the Republic of India and of course in Himachal Pradesh. You can’t discriminate them by saying ‘these Tibetans want Free Tibet’ or ‘they are selling Made-in-China stuffs’ or ‘they are buddhist monastery lovers’ and so on. Just stop whining like a baby for one thing only! You are not a moral police for godsake! This is democratic India and anybody can do anything as long as it’s legal and in the constitution. I don’t see being Buddhist is a crime for the Tibetans, I don’t see ‘selling made in china stuff’ by few Tibetans is illegal and I don’t definitely see ‘calling for free Tibet’ is unconstitutional.  You are lucky to be born after the British gave independence to India and same in the case for me, I was born in an Independent India after losing my fatherland to the Chinese and my motherland is India now just like for the thousands of Tibetans in HP and India. I don’t regret being born in India but I also don’t feel I owe anything to anybody legally, financially and morally. Indians are born all over the world and they become citizens of those countries and enjoy the equal rights as others without any discrimination, harassment, slandering, generalization and demonization of their ethnicity in this age and nobodys dictating them or reminding them to ‘express generosity’ all the time for being born in a foreign land where their parents live on any status. 

    As for those ‘bhikaris’ (no offence), I would have used another words like ‘peddler’ or something but I wanted to show you how the Monasteries and the generous monks with our ‘givings’ helping those poor people and yes, they give them foods, cloths and blankets on a regular basis including shelter and employment sometimes. Tibetans employ huge number of Indian people all over the India from housework to business to handicrafts and some of those Indian do live with Tibetans as family all their life. Those ‘made in china’ sellers, you called in Macleod Ganj and Manali, are also employing poor Indians and paying their salaries every month to feed their families and contributing largely to the tourism industry in Himachal. How about that? What an irony that you are making fun of those generous people by hiding the real facts. 

    As for our Tibetan fauji brothers, they joined Indian army on a voluntary basis and not out of compulsion or for some compensation as you described them before but for courage, honor, pride and bravery. Their parents could have put them in family business but they opted to serve for Bharat Mata and defend our freedom from China and Pakistan. Rajneesh, its not appropriate to label a large group of community with a ‘tag’ based on the behavior and business of some handful of people whose livelihood, religion, look & national orientation may differ from you in the region where you are residing. 

    The Karmapa controversy was a single stray incidence that was blown out of proportion by politicians, media and few ignorant Tibetan-bashers. The law will take it’s own course and so far as I know nothing is proven illegal in the court of indian law. You have no proof to back up your accusations against the general Tibetans so far other than clinging on few ‘sensationalized incidents’ where ‘judge & jury’ are the same person. Tibetans have observed the law of the land until now faithfully however Tibetan themselves were deprived of all the rights in their adopted motherland from FCRA to citizenship rights to land purchase rights as per other non-Himachali in the state, that are bestowed equally by the Constitution of India to all the citizens born in India. As former CM Virbhadra Singh has said publicly ‘Tibetans born in Himachal are the citizen of the country & they have not officially taken citizenship because they were fighting to FreeTibet from the control of China’. That sums up everything for the Tibetans in HP! Now, dont be hating! ……we still drink the same water under the ‘anchal’ of Himalaya. 

  14. says: Rajneesh

    Dear Mr. Knowledgeable Tashi Lama,

    Greetings ! Thanks for enlightening me and all readers about “Made In China & Sold By Tibetans” Advocacy and misinforming, misleading people with fabricated stories cooked up against national interests of INDIA ! I had no idea that you are a “living legend” & “Reservoir” of self styled, fictitious , manipulative knowledge.

    People like you are harming INDIA under the shadow of pseudo secularism !

    And regarding your advocacy of “Tibetans” serving in INDIAN army, dear … I again Challenge you ! Now you prove it with evidence! Not by these pictures collected from web sites that are created under the spell of “Privacy Protection” in Who is result record search.

    First i thought that i was ignorant, now i am sure, you too are part of nexus propagating this false information and bringing in people to believe that “INDIANS & TIBETANS are jointly combating China since long.

    You are labeling Ladakh scounts as “Tibetans” , please wake up !! Wash your eyes and get a good cup of INDIAN Tea ! Other than a fictitious legend, you are also “Sheikh Chilli” living in self created fools paradise and thinking its “Tibet”

    Mr. Lama before educating me, you are also advised to take admission in some good INDIAN school as your education might be in self styled “Tibetan School” that would have taught you about “Tibetans Serving in INDIAN Army” propaganda and theory which you eventually believe in .

    There are no Tibetans in INDIAN army, when the resident staus of Tibetans is of refugees then how come they can join it…Only Nepal residents have the special privilege to join INDIAN army, no one else ! Tibetans are “Refugees” in their resident status and INDIAN Army never recruited “Tibetan Refugees” Now you prove it that “Tibetans serve in INDIAN army ! I

    The link which you send has pictures of Ladakhi people (Don’t mislead anyone here that “Tibetans Are Fighting Against China While Serving In INDIAN Army, you are doing a crime by posting this fictitious information.
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?37833-India-s-Tibetan-Troops-Histories-amp-Rare-Photographs&s=680aea1d4ded719a94137bab42383637

    You said —–> It looks to me that you can’t even handle the diversity of your state because of your ignorance, intolerance and lack of information, where millions of Buddhist and Tibetan-ancestry Himachali’s like Kinauri, Ladakhi, sikkimese and Arunachali who have similar culture and faith with Tibetans live in peace and harmony.

    Don’t try to divert the topic, “Just tell the world first why “Tibetans Shout Against China” unnecessarily when they love “Selling Made In China” It proves that your fellow people damn care about “Tibet Issue” and they are busy minting money by selling “Made In China” Perhaps you are yourself a lone joker advocating this “Made In China & Sold By Tibetans” Circus !

    You said —->

    I don’t see ‘selling made in china stuff’ by few Tibetans is illegal ..

    Obviously who told you its crime by “Selling Made In China” by Tibetans..really its not a crime ..its a rare bravery and issue of future “National Pride” for people expecting to get Tibet Free One Day..

    Tibetans who are busy selling “Made In China” should be rewarded with special mementos..we would definitely recommend your name as “Special Guest” to distribute awards and certification for contributing such an exemplary task of comedy circus to “Tibetan Freedom Struggle” ..lols !

    You said —————>>>

    Just stop whining like a baby for one thing only! You are not a moral police for godsake! This is democratic India and anybody can do anything as long as it’s legal and in the constitution. I don’t see being Buddhist is a crime for the Tibetans, I don’t see ‘selling made in china stuff’ by few Tibetans is illegal

    ok, i’ll do that but first you also stop advocating like a schizophrenic man who has no control over his opinions and common sense of issues. I didn’t said a single time its unconstitutional to sell “Made in China” by Tibetans..its just a good comedy against your own freedom struggle, i have sympathy with you, as you are terribly embarrassed . !

    You said —–>

    Indians are born all over the world and they become citizens of those countries…

    Because they are not refugees who fled their country like Tibetans. Correct your comparison first. INDIANS are in demand everywhere, due to high worth & set of skills they have..

    You said ———–> Tibetans employ huge number of Indian people all over the India from housework to business to handicrafts and some of those Indian do live with Tibetans as family all their life. Those ‘made in china’ sellers, you called in Macleod Ganj and Manali, are also employing poor Indians and paying their salaries every month to feed their families and contributing largely to the tourism industry in Himachal. How about that? What an irony that you are making fun of those generous people by hiding the real facts.

    O really, i didn’t know that Tibetans are so rich to employ poor INDIANS, dear What about INDIA who is feeding Lakhs of Tibetans despite the fact they dodge the system, don’t pay anything in taxes and evade laws every now and then..what bout INDIA’s generosity that we are tolerating you people without putting an extra question marks about your deeds…

    Because of Tibet issue our nation has complex relationships with CHINA and defense expenditures have gone in trillions of Dollars…how would you compensate for that, if you are asked to repay that debt of obligation it would take your 7 thousand generations to work in INDIAN homes as domestic help!! Mind it and don’t convey such non sense that you are feeding poor INDIANS…Just put off this mirror from your eyes who sees only self.. INDIA have a tussle with CHINA primarily because of Tibetans..Had it was not there many more people in INDIA would have been more richer as good as Karmapa…!

    Defense expenditure is eating developmental activities here..so much credit goes to Tibetans in exile too..war machine makers, fighter planes makers, gun makers, night vision, helicopter makers.. causality equipment makers…long list…. These are all mostly western people with private companies ..have good amount of billions & millions of dollars…and when they get heavy and burden with this guilt….come with bagful of money to monasteries and ashrams who are giving them soul clearing certificates…are open for them to “Contribute and Donate” to holy work…wow what a nice vicious circle we live in !

    You said ————> You have no proof to back up your accusations against the general Tibetans so far other than clinging on few ‘sensationalized incidents’ where ‘judge & jury’ are the same person.

    Sorry dear, i have just allegations of moral bankruptcy for just those Tibetans who sell “Made In China” and you label me “Judge & Jury” so it would be nice if you add one more J to it …Joker..lols..the one is advocating the story where judge and jury is same person…heights of comedy !!! Lols..

    You said —-> As former CM Virbhadra Singh has said publicly ‘Tibetans born in Himachal are the citizen of the country

    Dear as far as i know Mr. Vir Bhadra is not chief justice of INDIA who has given a final verdict. His words don’t carry any meaning constitutionally !
    Dear, come out with your residential address, i will send you real gift “Made In INDIA” court notice to misinform masses with with doubtful intentions and information !

    As you said ——> hat sums up everything for the Tibetans in HP! Now, dont be hating! ……we still drink the same water under the ‘anchal’ of Himalaya.

    No i am not hating actually, i was enjoying comedy..lols..we also drink lugdi and sing sing sometimes..introduced by Tibetans ….now don’t blame that many INDIANS like it so Tibetans are forced to sell it…Lols..>>

    As former CM Virbhadra Singh has said publicly ‘Tibetans born in Himachal are the citizen of the country & they have not officially taken citizenship because they were fighting to FreeTibet from the control of China’. That sums up everything for the Tibetans in HP! Now, dont be hating! ……we still drink the same water under the ‘anchal’ of Himalaya.

    1. says: yishin

      Rajneesh, you very rude! we all know India Govt and India people bully Tibetan people in india,India eat Sikkim and not allow H.H.Karmapa go back to sikkim ! A few thoudand years ago ,other religion go into India and destroyed Buddhism, burn the temple …nowaday ,in India only 1%is Buddhist, since The Hounarable Mr. Gandhi pass away, India Is not a democratic beautiful country. They ude H.H.Dalai Lama to play China and restricted H.H.Karmapa! Yes I’ m Buddhist, and I will not accused other religion leader ,even the Thaye Dorje Rinpoche Iwill not scold him, but you no shame ah! how dare you accused H.H.Karmapa ! whats is your religion?

      1. says: yishin

        sorry Mr Avnish Katoch. Mr Rajneesh words really made me very angry , i would said I m a bit crazy, I’m very sorry , actually India people are very kind to Tibetan people especially to Tibetan monks and nuns. actually India people the main society protect Tibetan people including H.H.Karmapa and provide them the second home,thank you India society and kind people! I will visit India again next year

  15. says: Tashi Lama

    Mr. Rajneesh ‘Pinocchio’!  

    Your lies are now getting out of hand and you are in a state of constant denial, illusion and foolishness. Please, come out of your little ‘cocoon’ and embrace the reality of your state for others sake. Whatever you commented so far is all shameful lies, inaccurate fictional assumptions, unfair accusations and un-factual accounts of successful Tibetan diaspora in India.

    Shame on you for misleading other Indians with your shameless lies and fake distorted stories against the peaceful decent Tibetans who are loved by all. You must be one of those guys who loves the elements of negativity and  discontents in society all the time and hates all ethnicity’s of their success and accomplishments in their life. 

    You can’t even seem to accept the fact that Tibetans do serve in the Indian Army for the past 50 years in large numbers and your only objection and futile rejection was their ‘refugee’ status. Shame on you again for perpetuating your lies!  You are really jn a state of a BIG denial and you can’t seem to recover from it any time pathetically. 

    Don’t just go on blaming some websites for your pesky unknowledgeable condition. If you could go to Dehradun and look for yourself if you dare to face those Tibetan jawans OR just do the easiest thing, hide in a corner and  go to:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force

    If you cant acknowledge their existence, at least read or listen to what those brave Tibetan jawans were saying: 

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?136022-Not-their-own-Wars-India-s-Secret-Tibetan-Force 

    There is a song composed by Tibetan Fauji Bhai  in Hindi, is titled “We are Vikasi”, referring to the term used for a regiment within the Tibetan SFF. Its words allude not only to a push to keep the cause of Tibetan independence alive, but also to the formation of a new identity within the past half-century: the Tibetan-Indian, temporarily or otherwise.
    Here is the song for you: 

    “Hum hai Vikasi, tibbat wasi
    Desh ki shyan bharayenghye

    Jab jab humko milega moka
    Jaan pe khel dekhayenghye

    Hum hai vikasi
    Chin ne humse chean ke tibbat
    Ghar se hame nikala hae
    Phirbi bharat ne humko,
    Apno ki tara sambhala hae
    Ekna Ek din chin ko bhi hum
    Nako channe chabayenghye
    Jab jab hum ko milega moka
    Jaan pe khel dekhayenghye

    Sichan glaciar main humko
    Moka mila dubara hai
    Hamare vir jawano ko
    Nahin koyi bhi gum
    Kargil hoya Bangladesh
    Himmat kabhi na hare hum
    Jab jab hum ko milega moka
    Jaan pe khel dekhayenghye

    Jahan hamara mahel potala
    Norbu lingka pyara hai
    Pujya dalai lama singhasan
    Tabse hi nyara hai
    Yad karo aun viron ko
    Jisne diya balidan hai
    Au milkar gayen hum
    Jai hamara Tibbat Jai
    Jai hamara Tibbat Jai
    Jai Hamara Tibbat Jai”

    Here are more for you to check and read at this site:
     http://www.tibetwrites.org/?Not-their-own-wars

    You want more, you got more:

    http://forums2.phayul.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19790-phantom-warriors-of-1971-unsung-tibetan-guerrillas/

    Is that enough???? or you want more  class in Tibetan ‘Lama Fauji’ bravery and history. Now tell me whose harming more to India??????? YOU and your idiocy or the faithful Tibetans who are sacrificing their life for India and making this country more diverse and safer to live.

    Oh yeah!!!!! You want to know If the Tibetans are ‘refugee’ or citizen of India even after 50 years of existence in India, you should read this also: 

    http://www.tibetanreview.net/news.php?id=8034

    And this too:
     http://m.timesofindia.com/india/HC-order-may-benefit-over-35000-Tibetans/articleshow/7330820.cms

    You are absolutely right when you said ‘Tibetans are busy minting money’….YES!….they were busy minting  money, protecting India from China & Pakistan, keeping their culture and identity alive and being one of the most successful ‘displaced’ ( ‘refugee’ for you!) people in this world. How about that? …….Jealous now! STOP blaming the Tibetans for all your self-made problems. And stop blaming on the ‘defense expenditure’ of India for your incompetency, corruption, nepotism, jingoism and failures in economy, politics, diplomacy and education of ignorant citizens like you.   

    Now, tell me whose the comedian here? Mr. Unconstitutional! 

    DON’T BE HATING!!!!!!!!! :-) 

  16. says: Rajneesh

    Mr. Lama

    As you have virtually accepted & established yourself as “An Unpaid Advocate & Joker For “Made In China & Sold By Tibetans” Circus ” lols..We congratulate you for this rare bravery and exemplary self created embarrassment !

    With all above justifications you are severely trying to put a blanket on embarrassment brought in by “Tibetans” shouting slogans against China & side by side “Selling Made In China” comedy.

    I can understand about your mental agony, frustration and inability to cope up the pressure of psychological defeat and advocating unnecessarily “Made in China & Sold By Tibetans” blunder !

    You said ——> Shame on you for misleading other Indians with your shameless lies and fake distorted stories against the peaceful decent Tibetans who are loved by all

    I am not misleading anyone, expect you who is trying to fester the visible blunder “Made In China & Sold By Tibetans”

    Ya, everyone knows how much peaceful Tibetans are, always trying to create jugglery and panic among natives of land and murdering them aggressively. If you are so much loved by all why you couldn’t bring out people in support for your “Karmapas” hawala money ? The whole team of Karmapa’s misleading trust was eating bread and butter in jail custody these past days…everyone knows who is misleading !

    I know & everyone else too …that you have no answer except excuses and fabricated stories on “Made In China” & Sold By Tibetans Blunder” !

    I added few lines to your song—->

    “Hum hai Vilaasi, Tibet wasi
    Made In China Dukano Me Layenge..
    Jab jab humko milega moka “China Tibet Choro Bhi Chillaenge”

    Jab jab humko milega moka
    Naye Math or Monastery Banvainge..
    Uske Nam Pe Hogi Collection ..Aur Khoob Maal Banayenge..

    Jab Pakda Jayega Koi Scandal..
    Fir Candle March Le Ke Aaenge…
    Hum hai Vilaasi, Tibet wasi..
    “Tibet Ko Cheen Se Azaad Karne Se Pehle “Made In China Bechete Jayenge”…Lols..

    I advice you to take some good medicine as well as get a regular psychiatric check up done to ease your anxiety ! …..

    And yes, you have failed in giving reasons why “Tibetan Freedom Seekers” Sell “Made In China”…Lols..

  17. says: Avnish Katoch

    Tashi and Rajneesh,

    I hope you both debate keeping the personal emotions in check. Please be respectful to each other and debate with clear conscience. I hope you respect the platform and not carry forward a personal and hatred agenda. Just a requet!

    1. says: Rajneesh

      Mr. Avnish,

      Debate was originally about Karmapa’s unaccounted money and got diverted to issues equally debatable as why Tibetans shout against China and keep “Selling Made In China”.

      Mr. Tashi Lama took another way around by bringing in “Tibetan Soldiers” in INDIAN army, (A Total Set Of Misinformation, Which i Challenge Him To Prove) …He’s just trying to label “Ladakh Scouts As “Tibetan Soldiers”.

      Along with main issue he brought in Baba Ramdev, and many such issues.. and posted Hilarius comments indirectly on INDIANS.

      He’s aggressively conveying and advocating “Made In China & Sold By Tibetans” issue a responsibility of “Bargain Hungry INDIAN customers..

      He’s behaving like an ethically bankrupt person advocating this stupidity & blunder..whats the difference between a traitor or a Chinse Angent?? when he advocates so hard for “Made In China & Sold By Tibetans” story ! While our past freedom struggle, INDIANS boycotted “Made In England” unlike Tibetans, always selling “Made In China”..

      Tibetans need freedom from Chinese occupancy in Tibet, shout slogans every now and then…but their love for “Made In China” makes this whole freedom struggle a “Big Comedy”

      Just look at his words ——————> And stop blaming on the ‘defense expenditure’ of India for your incompetency, corruption, nepotism, jingoism and failures in economy, politics, diplomacy and education of ignorant citizens like you…

      My reply – INDIA is rich enough to tolerate this…Mr. Lama you should take care of “Tibetan Freedom Struggle” where a comedy circus is going on for last 5 decades and even Tibetans themselves have become “Parasites” to own freedom struggle by selling “Made In China”

  18. says: Tashi Lama

    Thank you Mr. Katoch for stepping in and reminding Mr. Rajneesh about his stubborn fictional conscience. If you look back at the beginning of this debate, the only lie which Mr. Rajneesh perpetuated was ‘handful of Tibetans doing this and that in India’ and needlessly generalizing all Tibetans as such. He don’t want to even accept the fact that he has been proven wrong time and time again in this debate.  He can’t back up his accusations and distorted facts with evidence and constantly attacking a ‘minority’ of Tibetans who are trying to live their life peacefully and rightfully. I am happy that this ………..(edited by admin) does not speak for all of us, rest we all are doomed!!!!  His only agenda and vendetta seems to be pressing on lies, lies and more lies to the people by diverting their attention to an irrelevant topic and mislead them against the Tibetans. He has knowingly insulted the honor and prestige of our Tibetan jawans of Indian Army by desecrating their bravery song and picked on stray incidences in demonizing whole community as culprit. 
    He doesnt even know that Karmapa has been given clean chit by Central and State government and Karmapa has been allowed to travel anywhere in India. He’s been calling the ‘dhaan’ donation money of the international Buddhist followers as ‘hawala’ and dismissing any possibility of in-deliberate account mistake by the Trust management. 

    His words now sound like that of a ‘paid instigator’ and prejudiced advocate of communal disharmony and discontents and I advise all the readers to watch his words carefully. I am sure he must be using one of those cheap labelled ‘made in china’ goods at this time and acting like they are ‘made in US’. For him, facts are not relevant in any arguments besides his elephant ego that’s both ‘judge and jury’ for his pea-sized prejudiced brain. 

    Here’s a quote for Mr. Rajneesh and his likes: 
    “Those who hate most fervently must have once loved deeply; those who want to deny the world must have once embraced what they now set on fire.” 

    He dont need to apologise for his blunders but I accept his apology and he’s always welcome! 🙂  

  19. says: Rajneesh

    Mr. Lama ,everyone knows who is a liar here in this discussion…

    What are you up to now with this discussion? Your behave is like a “Chinese Agent” in Tibetan disguise. Relying & advocating “Made In China & Sold By Tibetans” story. I am sure, you too must be getting good commissions with all this mockery, and sharing it with “Tibetans, interested in selling “Made in China”

    Self proclaimed clean chits for Karmapas Chit fund company….lols! What a funny claim. Your blunders are clearly evident, you label Ladakh Scouts as “Tibetans Soldiers In INDIAN Army” I asked you to prove that “Tibetans are allowed to join INDIAN army, You seem to be running an international “misleading people though internet”

    You said —–> His words now sound like that of a ‘paid instigator’ and prejudiced advocate of ……

    And who knows you are a Lama or a Chinese Pajama..lols..trying to malign INDIAN forces by cooking up stories that bring a question mark over INDIAN army, state government or integrity of INDIA. You see m to be running a agency that fabricates facts to fiction…but poor presentation i must say !

    People & Traitors who advocate open blunders against the Interests of “Tibetan Freedom Struggle” and country they live in should be punished by making a murga on Mcleodganj Chowk and garlanded with “Made In China” flowers..

    Your statements were like diapers… They both were changing regularly and for the same reason and “Shit” you were trying to hide for “Made In China” embarrassment !

    I pray that you also get good “psychiatric” treatment before everyone else knows that your screws have gone loose.. !! lols

  20. says: Tashi Lama

    Here we go again. Comedy non-stop!!!……

    I should say……”tumhare dimag mein tu sirf gobar hi bhara hay”!!!….. It is useless to reason with you because of your ‘gobar’ condition and ‘gadhay ki Dhimaak’ understanding.

    Mr. Katoch was right. Your emotions are overtaking your conscience and ‘goberfull’ of brain’. By now, your face may have darkened with telling all the lies about Tibet and the Tibetans. You are a champion when it comes to turning real facts into distorted fiction and lies. A person who can’t accept the reality and lost in his own world of illusions and psychological infancy.
    You need to grow up and get some lessons on tolerance!
    I say this again, Karmapa is innocent and has been given clean chit by Central and State government of India and Tibetans will keep on serving in the Indian army and calling for FreeTibet. There’s nothing you can do about it except embarrassing yourself by telling lies all the time.

    I hope to never ever hear from you again. I accept your apology and you are welcome! 🙂

    1. says: Avnish Katoch

      Tashi and Rajneesh,

      This is it guys. End of comments for both of you on this post.

      Gave you chance to clear doubts one last time and you both posted replies, now your fight is becoming personal.

      Won’t approve any of the comments on this matter from both of you.

  21. बैजनाथ — हिमाचल में रह रहे शरणार्थी तिब्बतियों के हौसले इस कद्र बुलंद हो गए हैं कि अब वे भारत मुर्दाबाद के नारे लगाने लगे हैं। कुछ ऐसी ही हिमाकत इन्होंने गुरुवार को बैजनाथ के बिनवा पुल पर की, जब पुलिस ने उन्हें ओवरलोडिंग से रोका। बाद में हालांकि पुलिस ने इनके वाहनों का चालान काटकर इन्हें सबक सिखा दिया। हुआ यूं कि 10 जीप- टैम्पो में सवार होकर करीब अढ़ाई सौ तिब्बती बैजनाथ की ओर जा रहे थे। यातायात नियमों का उल्लंघन होता देख जैसे ही पुलिस ने इन्हें रोकना चाहा, तो वे भारत मुर्दाबाद के नारे लगाने लगे। यही नहीं, उन्होंने पुलिस से हाथापाई की कोशिश भी की। यातायात पुलिस प्रभारी हंसराज ने बताया कि तिब्बतियों को समझाने वे असभ्य व्यवहार पर उतर आए। उन्होंने पुलिस को चीनी पिट्ठू तक कह डाला। उन्होंने धमकी दी कि बिनवा पुल पर ही धरना दे देंगे। पुलिस ने उच्चाधिकारियों को सूचना दे दी है। इस संदर्भ में डीएसपी संजीव चौहान का कहना है कि यातायात नियमों से खिलवाड़ किसीको भी नहीं करने दिया जाएगा।

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